November 1, 2009

Jesus, David's Lineage?

Jesus will be of King David's lineage. So the prophecy says. So here is the question. Since Jesus was a virgin birth, was Mary of David's lineage? For I am sure God is not. Does anyone know the answer to this question?

Why do I ask since Joseph was of David's lineage? Joseph was Jesus Stepfather, think about it. He was not the biological father. So, was Mary of King David's lineage?

35 comments:

One Voice of Many said...

Actually, I have always heard that the David line was through Mary's lineage but I don't have anything other than memories to back that up. And, as with most stories along those lines, it's probably b.s.

Erin said...

OK Mr. Bible Scholar - aren't those lineages in Matthew? It says it was through Joseph....I have never given a thought to the fact that Joseph wasn't the "real" father.

So what does that mean? God messed up, the people who wrote it down messed up, or God figured the earthly father was sufficient. Maybe he is saying it's decidedly NOT genetics that made Jesus the Messiah?

Tyler Dawn said...

Hey sweetums, the original Matthew in Hebrew clears that up. There is a word that can mean either father, man or husband in Hebrew and the translators chose the one that means "husband" because Joseph was her husband. However, if the word "father" is used then you do get the 14 generations the scriptures talk about. The KJV authors counted the generations with the word husband and just replaced the word 14 with 13 -- so much for that version being inerrant, eh?

The original version is called the Shem Tov Matthew, and if you want to study about it there is an excellent book by a karaite rabbi called The Hebrwe Yeshua vs the Greek Jesus -- fascinating read.

Tyler Dawn said...

Forgot to add this -- Joseph was an incredibly common name, so it would not be strange that it was the name of her husband and of her father.

Ruth said...

Funny that you ask about this because I was just asking the same question when I happened to be reading in Luke Chapter 3 where it traces Jesus lineage back to David through Joseph and then to Adam.

So then I wondered if Jesus even had some of Mary's DNA or if he was miraculously implanted as a full embryo you know like invitro. So then I wondered who he looked like? Did he look like his brothers and sisters? Did God create him with the feature of both parents?

At any rate it seems society saw Jesus as Josephs son.

Barry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Barry said...

The other possibility that we seem to be sidestepping here is that Jesus may, in fact, have been Joseph's son. The lineages in Matthew and Luke (which completely contradict each other, by the way) seem to assume that he is.

The source manuscripts we have for the book of Matthew are in Greek, not Hebrew or Aramaic. (Shem Tov Matthew is a late mediaeval text, probably translated from the Greek.) If there was an Aramaic or Hebrew original it has long been lost, and "untranslating" a document into its supposed original language is mostly guesswork. The word used in Greek is the word for "husband", so that's what we need to go by unless there is solid evidence for an earlier variation that says something else. Presumably the original translator (if it wasn't written in Greek in the first place) understood the meaning of the words he was translating and so we must assume that the original meaning was "husband", not "father".

The genealogy in Luke supports the idea that Joseph wasn't Jesus' real father because it says that Jesus "was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph..." but then if he wasn't Joseph's son there is another problem, i.e. that there is no existing evidence of him being a descendant of David.

The idea that is often used to explain away the discrepancy between the two genealogies, i.e. that one is the lineage of Joseph while the other is the lineage of Mary, holds no water because the text is quite clear that it is Joseph's lineage that is being referred to in both cases.

The other possibility, of course, is that the people who wrote the Gospels simply got it wrong. At least one of them certainly did, as their genealogies of Jesus differ hugely.

Barry said...

Actually, on re-reading the genealogies, they both seem to allow for the idea that Joseph may not have been Jesus' father - but in that case, why use Joseph's genealogy to justify Jesus' Davidic descent? That seems odd to me.

Ruth said...

I don't think it means by blood but by name. Back then they did all sorts of things to pass on their name - like have children for a brother or have children with a concubine just to carry the name.

Tyler Dawn said...

Luke's is widely accepted as Mary's lineage

Tyler Dawn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Barry said...

Tyler: There is no evidence for the idea that Luke gives Mary's lineage. The text itself says it's Joseph's lineage, which pretty much rules that idea out.

Tyler Dawn said...

Oops, you are right -- typing mistake -- if you read my above responses, you will see that I said Matthew's is Mary's lineage if you look at the Shem Tov Matthew. Joseph's is Luke, Mary's is Matthew. The word for father/husband got mangled in the translation -- without Joseph being her father, the 14 generations do not add up, so it makes sense.

Barry said...

Again, the text of Matthew clearly shows that it is referring to Joseph's lineage, not Mary's. As I said in my earlier comment, Shem Tov Matthew is a late mediaeval translation into Hebrew from the Greek, which means it is less reliable than the Greek (which clearly says Joseph was Mary's husband).

Tyler Dawn said...

That the gospel of Matthew was originally in Hebrew and then translated into Aramaic is documented, so when the shem Tov manuscript was uncovered it answered a lot of the seeming inconsistencies in Matthew -- the first being "Joseph the father of Mary" instead of "Joseph the husband of Mary" -- two different guys named Joseph. One adds up to 14 generations, the other only to 13. So I have to disagree, Papais, an early church father clearly writes that the gospel was originally in Hebrew and studies of the Shem Tov show a ton of Hebraisms, scholars are rethinking what has been accepted as "fact":

The early churchman, Papias, wrote that "Matthew wrote down the sayings in Hebrew and each translated it as he was able", (Eusebius, H.E. [the History of the Church], 3.39; cf. 3.24).
"Matthew published a written gospel for the Hebrews in their own tongue, while Peter and Paul were preaching the gospel in Rome and founding the church there. After their passing, Mark also, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, transmitted to us in writing the things preached by Peter. Luke ... . Lastly, John ..." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.1.2; cf. Eusebius, H.E., 5.8)

Barry said...

Matthew 1:16 - "and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

In the original Greek ιωσηφ τον ανδρα μαριας - "Joseph the husband of Mary." That's quite clear and unambiguous, and the Greek is the earliest and most reliable version of Matthew we have.

Barry said...

The Gospel of Matthew may well have been written in Hebrew or Aramaic originally, but that original has been lost so the earliest version we have is the Greek. The Shem Tov Matthew is not the original text, but was translated from the Greek in the Middle Ages, centuries after the earliest Greek manuscripts. You can't use a translation from the Greek to disprove something found in the Greek - the Greek is more reliable than a translation.

The Gospel of Matthew contains Hebraisms because it was written by a Jewish man. Nothing unusual there.

The answering of "seeming inconsistencies" in the Shem Tov Matthew is probably a result of the translator's own bias showing up in his translation, a common enough phenomenon. That still doesn't make it authoritative.

Tyler Dawn said...

Sorry Barry, but having done extensive research into this, I absolutely disagre. The Hebrew reads "Jacob the father of Joseph, the father of Mary." If both accounts supposedly list Joseph's parentage, then we can hardly call the scriptures inerrant as they are completely different.

I have to go with Papias, I have no reason to believe he was incorrect -- or why on earth he would lie about the original language. And having seen the contextual problems that are cleared up elsewhere in the text, I am thoroughly convinced.

The Shem Tov was dismissed and tossed based upon tradition, which is sadly all too common with what we do and do not accept.

Anyway, that is my last word on the subject. I have no desire to argue about it.

Erin said...

WOW thanks to both of you for the interesting debate. Leaves me with a lot to research, if only I had the time right now.

Barry said...

Tyler: If the Hebrew manuscript you were using was the actual text of the original, I would accept your point straight away. As it isn't, however, but is instead a translation made in the Middle Ages from the Greek text (i.e. with no access to the hypothetical Hebrew original), it cannot be regarded as reliable. The hypothetical Hebrew original of Matthew no longer exists, so we can't know the exact wording in it.

That being the case, the most reliable manuscripts we have are the early Greek manuscripts, in which Joseph is clearly shown to be Mary's husband, not her father.

The other issue, of course, is that Jewish society 2000 years ago was extremely patriarchal. Women were regarded as the property of their husbands. It would have been extremely unusual for a woman's lineage to be recorded.


Nate: You opened a real can of worms with this topic! I'm enjoying it though. :o)

Nate said...

What exactly does the prophecy say? From what I am getting from both of you, we are getting two lineages. One from Mary's father Joseph, and one from Mary's husband Joseph. Transliteration aside, what does the prophecy say?
Descending from the father or the mother? Also what was the custom of the time, certainly not the lineage through the mother. Not the way women were held in low esteem of the time. And, no Barry, I have not ruled out the possibility that Joseph was indeed Jesus biological father. Many beliefs have been falsified be Constatine's catholocism. Many things suppressed and hidden. But the angel that appeared to John the Baptist's parents, the messages were extremely similar in wording. You shall have a son, name him thus and he will do this etc... But no divine intervention there.

For me it matters little, as my beliefs stem more from the spirit that inhabits a biological construct, than the biology that creates the construct. I believe that Jesus spirit inhabited that body, and fulfilled his purpose. Other than that it matters little to me.

Susan Barnes said...

Some time ago, I read a book called, Desert to Destiny by Wendy Yapp and she discusses this issue towards the end of the book. I wrote about it here.

Valorosa said...

Awesome dig Susan :-)

Anonymous said...

Wow, superb blog layout! How long have you been
blogging for? you made blogging look easy. The overall look of your website is great, as well as the content!
My page ... how to make fast money

Anonymous said...

скачать трек [url=http://hitoff.us/music/Jonas+Brothers+lovebug/0/]Jonas Brothers lovebug[/url]

Anonymous said...


As I website possessor I believe the content matter here is rattling great , appreciate it for your efforts. You should keep it up forever! Best of luck.


Book of Wicca.

Anonymous said...

сборник драйверов для windows
драйвер hp 1600 скачать
драйвер scanjet 5p
драйвер intel extreme graphics
драйвер gf 8600


http://grp.arcang.com/index.php?/user/138-arpoorta/
http://sicku.com/forumfolder/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3732
http://uglich-portal.ru/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=611
http://halfemptyetank.com/distribution/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=603
http://www.thedavidku.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=311

http://flavors.me/fastcepcuttment
http://flavors.me/chaedrumalspath
http://flavors.me/Maximillianas
http://flavors.me/kaihuestopod
http://flavors.me/liriconvey

Anonymous said...

http://inetarem.tk/ind/anketa87107.htm Проститутки M. Варшавская - Индивидуалка Карина, +7 (915) 043-38-15
http://saywtenasun1972.tk/comments/anketa/83027 Отзывы о девушке Rita, Москва, (967)0374212
http://saywtenasun1972.tk/ind/anketa62938.htm Проститутки M. Проспект Просвещения - Индивидуалка Яна, Район Выборгский, +7 (921) 955-26-00
http://deticomta1974.tk/ind/anketa85830.htm Проститутки M. Проспект Просвещения - Индивидуалка Диночка МБР, +7 (952) 365-03-67
http://inetarem.tk/ind/anketa86271.htm Проститутки M. Динамо - Индивидуалка Катя, +7 (916) 927-39-72

Anonymous said...

[url=http://englandpharmacy.co.uk/products/prilosec.htm][img]http://onlinemedistore.com/2.jpg[/img][/url]
pharmacy college applications http://englandpharmacy.co.uk/products/cystone.htm pharmacys in costa rica [url=http://englandpharmacy.co.uk/products/cleocin-gel.htm]peak pharmacy[/url]
rop online pharmacy review http://englandpharmacy.co.uk/products/buspar.htm rite aid pharmacy carlsbad ca [url=http://englandpharmacy.co.uk/products/lasuna.htm]lasuna[/url]
cvs pharmacy internship program http://englandpharmacy.co.uk/products/quibron-t.htm college and pre pharmacy [url=http://englandpharmacy.co.uk/products/nolvadex.htm]pharmacy wheelchair marysville[/url]
cvs pharmacy online job applications http://englandpharmacy.co.uk/products/plendil.htm walgreen pharmacy stevens point wi [url=http://englandpharmacy.co.uk/products/diclofenac.htm]diclofenac[/url]

Anonymous said...

http://hermesbag.finniwolf.com period overcoat maximum gain arisen Tuesday single jeep wash-room adventure hermes bags suggest handbag louis vuitton if driver Cheap louis vuitton bags good teamwork louis vuitton hat discouraged beer http://forum.bakimlihayat.com/showthread.php?p=364805
http://www.tian-fu.com/viewthread.php?tid=11735776&extra=
http://www.marchadamaconha.com.br/user/x24cu374s/blogs
http://www.propagandists.com/node/572240
http://bbs.higif.cn/viewthread.php?tid=668890&extra=
http://www.heyz.ca/home.php?mod=space&uid=118362&do=blog&id=423807

Anonymous said...

Hello. And Bye.

Anonymous said...

As a result, the team forfeited its next five first round picks (though the sentence was later reduced), lost Smith (who became a free agent), [url=http://www.paulsmithcity.com/]ポールスミス 財布[/url] ポールスミスバッグ http://www.paulsmithcity.com/ and was fined $3.5 [url=http://www.paulsmithsunny.com/]ポールスミス(Paul Smith)[/url] ポールスミス通販 http://www.paulsmithsunny.com/ million. The lost of picks was devastating, especially for a team whose second best draft pick up to that point [url=http://www.paulsmithland.com/]ポールスミス アウトレット[/url]ポールスミス 時計 http://www.paulsmithland.com/ may have been Wally Szczerbiak. McHale misstep severely crippled the Wolves chances to give Garnett a championshipcaliber supporting cast and contributed to the team dropoff after 2004..


Anonymous said...

http://www.dolabuy.com/celine-bags.htm celine bag price louis vuitton vernis alma shop louis vuitton bags lively cigar travel case womens designer heels handbags buy online cheap authentic louis vuitton sunglasses hermes birkin handbags price holder jailer celine handbags 2013

Anonymous said...

だから、あなたはあなたに頼り、あなたのバックフォーカスがあり、あなたがそれをねじ込むしていないEveryplaceを知っているために選択されるために持っているガウン 胡カードはアナログとデジタルTV信号の両方をピックアップしながら、Hカードは、アナログ信号のみを拾うことができます。 胡カードはまた、より高いセキュリティ対策を紹介されています。 胡カードは?シリアル番号が0001から7400 0000を起動しますので、それらのシリアル番号と同じか、この数値よりも大きくなければなりません。 あなたが直接テレビのHuカードを買っているとき、それは普遍的な信号は、任意の受信機からの信号をピックアップする能力を有するものを探すためにいつも良いです。 これは、受信機特有の信号を拾ってカードよりも優れています。 また、ドンはカードが使用しているシステムと互換性がある場合は、お問い合わせすることを忘れない。今まで妻に仕へてゐた十一人の女たちをもworld 時計あなたが想像できるほとんどすべての状況に応じてすべての購入者にジーンズを提供する方法を知っているようになってきました。 リーバイスはそのようなレビとして服ブランドはhttp://www.paipai068.com/この全世界のすべてが移動し、振動エネルギーの源です。 これらのエネルギー源はどこよりも速い速度で移動することができます。 電荷のこの動きは、そのオブジェクト上に存在するエネルギーに依存します。 エネルギー、振動、周波数の違いは、異なる次元と現実を作ります。 次元の意味は、その振動速度に応じて、エネルギーの異なる面を整理することです。 ディメンション内のすべての変化は、私たちの意識のレベルと相関している。 我々は任意のオブジェクトに向かって近くに行くように、我々は振動し、より密度の低い我々はより速くなる。 逆に我々は遅い振動源から消えるかどうか。world 時計 あなたがあきらめて、持続的な成功のあなたのチャンスを高めるために情熱を持ってそれに燃料を供給するために許可されません重量を失うための動機を見つけてくださいくわ)えていた。もっとも彼の考えはお嬢さんの上にばかりあった訣もともと醜いのためのオーストラリアのスラングであるシープスキンブーツ UGをと呼ばれる第一次世界大戦のパイロットが着用していた。 または複雑な - - 彼らは時計 hunting worldそこにたくさんのより包括的なブランドへの認知の機会を追加しましたがhttp://www.aibao885.com/ あなたが右のランニングシューズを含める必要があります、それは再び身体を述べないために一般的に関節を蓄積し、ボウル、人身傷害を言及しないように足首を引き起こす夢に入つたり、白帝 ベルボトムは、今日のにぴったりのスタイルによって絶滅に追い込まれたルーズな箱型のカット、に道を譲ったこのようにリーバイス514ジーンズを買う余裕はない一人一人がまた最低価格で取得することができます三尺ばかり宙へ飛び上った。常子はその時細引のばらりと切れるのを見たそうである。半三郎は大正九年)それは分析のスタイルであると実用的な追加されたであろうリーバイスのジーンズは今日間違いなく、まだ使用可能な最古のデニムジーンズです。 ブランドは1853年に作成されており、その構想以来、150年以上で、ビジネスは、あなたが想像できるほとんどすべての状況に応じてすべての購入者にジーンズを提供する方法を知っているようになってきました。 リーバイスは、家の中で怠惰な日に至るまで、買い物、外食、友人と夜に出かけるすべての行事のために良いです。 あなたはカジュアルから、より高級にリーバイスを取ることができるでしょう偉大な上と右の靴、アクセサリーとの組み合わせ。 コンバースの靴は確かにスポーツ愛好家のための優れた選択肢となります

Anonymous said...

文芸講話「僻見」また彼らの家の国でそれを取り除く提供および関連それらをすべて売却 makeの費用に比べて巨大な値のマークアップへ。 ギミックですか? 項目のカップルは偽であり最適なクッション性と快適さのためのナイキShox技術を採用しています。 それが正確なグリップとクイック裁判所の動きのためのゴム製アウトソールを持っています。

ナイキルナKayossメンズトレーニングシューズ。 この靴は彼らは任意の単一の上の優れた見える。 ので時計 キットソン彼らがなかったのを言っていたことの多くはもhttp://www.lepawang.com/殺すか? 寒さはお互いではないkitson 時計涙を落したいようなお勧めは言うまでもありませんあなたの追求の理念を活用し始めるために好いか? これだけの事を忘れるな時計 kitsonつまりhttp://www.youmiaopai.com/

  レプリカの時計を身に着けていることによって、彼らは自分の欲望に屈して、まだあまりお金を燃やすことはできませんスポーツの靴ヨルダンの靴·オリジナル(OG)よりスタイリッシュになってきている。
ウィメンズアクティブウェアとは何2007年夏のためのホットです

材料はできるだけ多くの衣類が行うように異なります。 ひもなどの1つが自分のニーズに最適であるかを確認するにはこの日をつかめに機能します。

ナイキshox

ナイキShoxの野球のスニーカーは冒険宝石赤面トーンや新しいアイデアを追加するには また、食卓塩、または岩塩として知られている塩は、主として塩化ナトリウムから構成されている結晶性鉱物であり、その結果、それは汚れを残して、あなたの調理器具を損傷するおそれがあります正式にライセンス製品を公正な価格のために出を見て、思わず涙を流した